We had a really great discussion in Niky's class today about the recurring motifs and values of Greek drama. Chief amount them, hubris defined by Merriam-Webster as "exaggerated pride or self-confidence", for those of you that may have never had cause to either study Greek drama or frequently utilized the word. I rarely accuse people of being hubristic, anyway.
Many of you may know, but I'd be remiss if I didn't include it for the people who may be reading and may not know, but we get the philosophy of 'moderation in all things' from our Classical Grecian friends (among many other ideas, like democracy, pillars, bath-houses and the Olympics), but I'll save them for you to read, because, let's face it, if you spent much time learning things from me, the world wouldn't be an entirely safe place to live. You should really fear the day when I'm able to teach at a collegiate level. We as a class turned to define hubris as any excessive behavior which causes pride and borders on obsession. You can look at the cliché example of hubris in Oedipus Rex; we opted to take a different route and cite examples of hubris in the contemporary zeitgeist. Sophie mentioned the film All the King's Men wherein the character Jack Burden receives an education on power and its temptation to corrupt. She had inferred that Willie Stark had been exercising in hubris, which led to his downfall. I wished to instance (but couldn't... our conversations move very quickly) both the Ridley Scott film Kingdom of Heaven and Herman Melville's Moby Dick, specifically the scene where Bailian de Ibelin rejects Princess Sybilla's offer to murder Guy de Lusignan, marry her and rule over Jerusalem and maintain her departed brother's peace with the Saracens; and the section where Captain Ahab reveals his intentions for the whale that took his leg and unmasted his ship, and inspires his men to heave their superstitions about the creature and summon him, repeatedly, by name, "Moby Dick." Both characters to me represent obsessions that lead not only to their own destruction, but the loss of innocent lives that they have sworn to protect. Bailian wishes to maintain his perfect honor as a knight and loses Jerusalem the lives of many of her citizens and the possibility of maintaining a peace with Saladín (I should mention that despite using historical figures, this movie is utterly fiction, but so... so good) and Ahab loses his ship, his life, and the lives of his crew (save Ishmael) to the whale he single-mindedly pursues for revenge. Both, I think are glittering examples of hubris.
Sheyenne brought up Kanye West and his ability to let his excessive ego shine at a whim... sometimes infamously, which prompted us to discuss both his apparent faults, the American obsession with celebrity and it's self-infatuation with the American dream (definitely a discussion in it's own right) before the conversation turned to her representation of the goddess Aphrodite in her monologue from the play Hippolytus. It was argued that the gods were themselves capable of hubris as was apparent when Aphrodite sacrifices her follower Phaedra to impose her divine will on Hippolytus who has sworn to remain chaste. The goddess in the play does seem to be rather prideful, but, to me, I believe that the gods of ancient Greece are exempt from hubris for a very specific reason, which thanks to the forum here, I would like to contend with you now:
I, for my part, am under the conclusion that the gods must be absolved from flaws such as hubris because the gods are, at heart, an abstraction. Aphrodite is the manifestation of Love; Thanatos the manifestation of Death; Poseidon the manifestation of Water; Demeter, the Harvest; Ares, War; Artemis, the Hunt; Hephaestus, Crafting; and so on and again. They embody a concept, and they have no choice but to represent it fully, immortally, with no opportunity to amend or withdraw. It would be unjust to punish a creature for an act that they have no choice but to take, for the gods have no free will. They exist by design, specifically human design. Our design. They exist to bring beauty, meaning and poetry into the world. The Greeks saw all of nature on two levels: the sun could shimmering of the surface of a rippling stream, which they would see, but would also perceive the dancing of water-nymphs. Think about it, that's visual poetry and a magnificent thing (and, unfortunately, something arresting that beloved science has robbed us of, and replaced with it's own elucidation). The gods are meant to instruct and inspire man, but we are not creations of the gods, they are our creations and therefore cannot be, must not be, subject to the same rules that govern, laud and damn us.
Time (or Chronos, if you're still a follower of the old gods) had cut our conversation short and left some of our ideas stunted on the vine. It did give me some things to consider about religion as a whole over the break, which out of respect for brevity, I'll not share at the moment; but I would like to ask you, reader, what you think? Especially if you're in the class and were apart of this burgeoning topic of conversation!
Sound off and leave your comments below, or in the comments section on the Facebook link.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I have no spur
If not now, when?
-R
Many of you may know, but I'd be remiss if I didn't include it for the people who may be reading and may not know, but we get the philosophy of 'moderation in all things' from our Classical Grecian friends (among many other ideas, like democracy, pillars, bath-houses and the Olympics), but I'll save them for you to read, because, let's face it, if you spent much time learning things from me, the world wouldn't be an entirely safe place to live. You should really fear the day when I'm able to teach at a collegiate level. We as a class turned to define hubris as any excessive behavior which causes pride and borders on obsession. You can look at the cliché example of hubris in Oedipus Rex; we opted to take a different route and cite examples of hubris in the contemporary zeitgeist. Sophie mentioned the film All the King's Men wherein the character Jack Burden receives an education on power and its temptation to corrupt. She had inferred that Willie Stark had been exercising in hubris, which led to his downfall. I wished to instance (but couldn't... our conversations move very quickly) both the Ridley Scott film Kingdom of Heaven and Herman Melville's Moby Dick, specifically the scene where Bailian de Ibelin rejects Princess Sybilla's offer to murder Guy de Lusignan, marry her and rule over Jerusalem and maintain her departed brother's peace with the Saracens; and the section where Captain Ahab reveals his intentions for the whale that took his leg and unmasted his ship, and inspires his men to heave their superstitions about the creature and summon him, repeatedly, by name, "Moby Dick." Both characters to me represent obsessions that lead not only to their own destruction, but the loss of innocent lives that they have sworn to protect. Bailian wishes to maintain his perfect honor as a knight and loses Jerusalem the lives of many of her citizens and the possibility of maintaining a peace with Saladín (I should mention that despite using historical figures, this movie is utterly fiction, but so... so good) and Ahab loses his ship, his life, and the lives of his crew (save Ishmael) to the whale he single-mindedly pursues for revenge. Both, I think are glittering examples of hubris.
Sheyenne brought up Kanye West and his ability to let his excessive ego shine at a whim... sometimes infamously, which prompted us to discuss both his apparent faults, the American obsession with celebrity and it's self-infatuation with the American dream (definitely a discussion in it's own right) before the conversation turned to her representation of the goddess Aphrodite in her monologue from the play Hippolytus. It was argued that the gods were themselves capable of hubris as was apparent when Aphrodite sacrifices her follower Phaedra to impose her divine will on Hippolytus who has sworn to remain chaste. The goddess in the play does seem to be rather prideful, but, to me, I believe that the gods of ancient Greece are exempt from hubris for a very specific reason, which thanks to the forum here, I would like to contend with you now:
I, for my part, am under the conclusion that the gods must be absolved from flaws such as hubris because the gods are, at heart, an abstraction. Aphrodite is the manifestation of Love; Thanatos the manifestation of Death; Poseidon the manifestation of Water; Demeter, the Harvest; Ares, War; Artemis, the Hunt; Hephaestus, Crafting; and so on and again. They embody a concept, and they have no choice but to represent it fully, immortally, with no opportunity to amend or withdraw. It would be unjust to punish a creature for an act that they have no choice but to take, for the gods have no free will. They exist by design, specifically human design. Our design. They exist to bring beauty, meaning and poetry into the world. The Greeks saw all of nature on two levels: the sun could shimmering of the surface of a rippling stream, which they would see, but would also perceive the dancing of water-nymphs. Think about it, that's visual poetry and a magnificent thing (and, unfortunately, something arresting that beloved science has robbed us of, and replaced with it's own elucidation). The gods are meant to instruct and inspire man, but we are not creations of the gods, they are our creations and therefore cannot be, must not be, subject to the same rules that govern, laud and damn us.
Time (or Chronos, if you're still a follower of the old gods) had cut our conversation short and left some of our ideas stunted on the vine. It did give me some things to consider about religion as a whole over the break, which out of respect for brevity, I'll not share at the moment; but I would like to ask you, reader, what you think? Especially if you're in the class and were apart of this burgeoning topic of conversation!
Sound off and leave your comments below, or in the comments section on the Facebook link.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself,
And falls on th'other. . . .
Macbeth Act 1, scene 7. 25–28Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself,
And falls on th'other. . . .
If not now, when?
-R
Bro, Did you see DWTS tonight? Hella crzy.
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